Progressive Debate #1

The Progressive Insurgency post generated some positive comments so I thought we would take it into some more detail. One thing I’ve had tried to do with The Big Stick is to point out that Progressivism isn’t an ideology, like conservatism or liberalism. Progressivism is more a philosophy of how to approach those two schools of thought or any other one. Progressivism is also frankly about progress.  It depends heavily on compromise, trust and a willingness to work out minor differences that are often oversold as major obstacles.

In the interest of trying to demonstrate that the devil is in the details, I wanted to enlist the aid of our good friend Progressive Traditionalist from The Roving Ellipsis. PT has agreed to participate in a friendly debate over the subtle differences in our two Progressive visions. As a springboard I am going to use his point-by-point rebuttals to the Progressive Insurgency post and I’ll post my counter-points here. As PT weighs back in with more opinions via our comments section, I will move his thoughts into the post. There may be some-cross posting at PT’s blog and if so, we’ll provide the linkage.

Hopefully this will work!

Point #1 from yours truly:

On helping the middle class, progressive conservatives favor traditional conservative solutions of helping people help themselves. We favor holding businesses accountable to their employees and allowing market forces to work. We favor hand-ups over hand-outs. We favor an optimism that every American can succeed when equipped with the right tools to be competitive. We favor regulation to prevent predatory lending, but we also believe in helping borrowers make smart decisions and then holding them accountable for the decisions they make. Our approach to strengthening the middle class is to help businesses and citizens form a partnership that is beneficial to both sides.

Rebuttal from Progressive Traditionalist:

I don’t share your concern with the middle class. I see them as a bunch of whiners, kinda like the baby boomers. The architects of their own destruction, they now want someone to save them from the consequences of their actions.

My reply:

I think you have pointed out a spot where I should have better explained myself PT. In fact, I largely share your view on the middle class. By the nature of their economic / social position the middle class is composed of people who must have done something right at some point. So we should give them the benefit of our trust. For the most part, no, they do not need help. They can always use information to aid in their decision making and when the government or anyone else can provide it, they should. As for direct assistance with their every day lives, as long as the government does its basic duty of providing security and adequate infrastructure, then it’s mostly fulfilling its responsibilities. ‘Security’ is a big word though. There are a lot of smaller issues wrapped up in that. Security means police and fire departments, a national defense, a safe food supply and good health care.

Security also refers to safety from bad business practices. This is where regulation comes in. yes, regulation seems contrary to the goals of capitalism and is usually perceived as an impediment, but sometimes it is a must. The government is the only real safeguard the public has against the worst business practices. Things like failing pension plans and executive salaries may only be addressed at the insistance of Uncle Sam.

On the flip side, I have made my skepticism towards big unions known. They need to be cleaned up and regulated as much or more as the businesses they partner with.

The true nature of my comments were actually focused on the Progressive goal of helping lift others in to the middle class. There are a lot of things Progressives can do to make that happen.

The fact of the matter is that I see the middle class as being the hotbed of the pecuniary emulation [*admin note: effort to equal or surpass another in status associated with wealth] that Veblen wrote about, and of other conspicuous consumption. From what I see, there are a lot of people with a sense of entitlement in this world. That rubs me the wrong way.

Some people believe that they should buy a house because they deserve one rather than waiting until they can afford one. Some people think they should carry a car note that they can’t afford rather than drive around in a beater for a year or two when they would be on better footing financially. From what I see, the middle class is the absolute worst about failing to plan, and it’s because of that sense of entitlement.

A couple of months ago, I worked with a man who is 26 yrs old. He told me that when you talk to a counselor (at the high school) about career paths, they never mention vo-tech, or if they do, it’s all about computers. That man now makes over $40/hr + $115/day per diem + benefits working as a pipeline welder. Not bad wages for Tulsa. And he doesn’t have any college debt to repay.

I understand you have concerns about unions. I have some of my own. But different unions are different. There’s really about three (that I know of) sorts of organizations that are unions. Some are pretty good, some are pretty rotten.

Working the other side of it, one of the things I have seen that kills a person’s chances of success is having children too young. The only people I have seen do this successfully were in the military. Otherwise, it is a burden that is difficult to overcome. Sure, it has its rewards, but I’m speaking from another view than toward the human value here. If you have three kids by the time you’re 25, you have a lot on your plate. Under those circumstances, if you’re not born into it, you’re not likely to get much.

More generally, I am against government programs to defend people against their own stupidity- ignorance yes, stupidity no.

With rights come responsibilities. And like it or not, as harsh as it may sound, people have a responsibility to grow up in this world.

I agree that probably the biggest threat to the continuation of the middle class is their own self-destructive tendencies. Consumer debt is at an all time high and this is the leading indicator that they are not doing things well. They want lots of ‘things’ and they don’t want to wait for them. I do not think bankrupcy protection for these choices is ‘progressive’. Perhaps that is where my conservative vision of Progressivism differs from a more liberal interpretation. I was lucky enough to have attended the 13-week Financial Peace University classes created by Dave Ramsey. It was a real eye opener and also made me realize that when people get into these deep debt problems, it’s almost always the result of bad choices. While I also agree that the lenders are part of the problem, adults need to be smarter about things. Beyond that, i wish someone would sue universities that allow credit card companies onto campuses because I consider that predatory and it should be fought every step of the way.

The second point you mention about vocational training is spot-on. As I tried to convey in my posts on unions, there are some great opportunities for individuals out there in professions like welding or as machinists. It is estimated that this country needs $1.3 trillion in infrastructure repair. Someone is going to have to do that and it is going to require a lot of highly-skilled ‘blue collar’ workers. I sometimes find myself considering a career change when I hear the kinds of wages available in these professions. What is hopefully going to drive some kids to consider these professions will be the craft unions aggressively pursuing new members for their professions.

As for kids, yes, they make things rough. They definitely limit your options. Even beyond that, i would suggest that early marriages make it tough as well. As for the military, i’ve always believed that if one is in the military they should forego marriage until they have advanced farther and rank (thus providing slightly more stability) or until they leave the service. I couldn’t imagine serving with two kids and a wife at home to worry about.